The Message Forum is an ongoing dialogue among classmates. The goal is to encourage friendly interaction, including interaction among classmates who really didn't know each other. Experience on the site has revealed that certain topics tend to cause friction and hard feelings, especially politics and religion. 

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David Cordell

Janalu,

Currently, Steve is living in a private room in a group home in north Dallas with several other individuals. It is just a normal house, and it doesn't have a medical vibe like the other five facilities where I have visited him.

Last Tuesday I visited Steve with Jimmy Baker and later in the day with Eddy Norton. Hull Barbee joined me on another occasion, and Jerry May and Jim Mulvihill on yet another. (Steve is quick to point out that he would much rather see Martha than me, and she accompanies me most of the time.) Tomorrow we will take some cake left over from our church reception.

Without invading his privacy, I think it is fair to say that Steve "is not himself," and I don't have a good sense of what the future holds.

Steve is very religious, and I am sure he would appreciate everyone's prayers.

Wayne Gary

Lowell,

The Northern states declared war on the Confederate states and invaded the Sourh. The constitution stated

(edit: From Confederate Constitution) Yale Law School Avalon Project

Article 1 :Sec. 9. (I) The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same.

The US Constituation  did not outlaw slavery.

Lowell Tuttle

Wayne, I think you mistunderstood my comment.   The Confederay had a Constitution after the secession...In it, they guaranteed slavery.   I was not talking about the US Consitution.

Wayne Gary

Lowell,

The US Constution did codify slavery. It took the 13 amendment iafter the Civil War to abolish slavery in the US.  

US Constitution  Article 1 Section 2

Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.

A slave only counted as three fiths  of a free person.

The same statement is in the Confederate Constitution. The Confederate Constitution was almost identical to the US Constitution. In this statment the word "Union" was replaced with "Confederacy",

Not all slave states joined the Confederacy. They held slaves until the 13th amendment was ratified.

David Cordell

Wayne,

Are you sure of this reference? I looked at a pdf of the Constitution and couldn't find it.

Article 1 :Sec. 9. (I) The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same.

Lowell Tuttle

Wayne, what I partially read...I haven't checked the source, however, written in 2011.   If my memory serves, that was before CRT became a huge thing...(it had always been a small thing, perhpas this was part of it's beginning...)

https://www.learningforjustice.org/magazine/fall-2011/getting-the-civil-war-right#:~:text=These%20conclusions%20are%20backed%20up,was%20a%20mixture%20of%20both.

Lowell Tuttle

Just in case you missed it...

Wayne Gary

David,

The first reference is from the Confederate Constitution.(Yale Law School Avalon Project)  The Second post is from the US Constitution.

I edited post to include reference.

The Confederate Constitution was almost word for word the same as the US Constution. From my A&M days leardne that the South felt the North was deviating fro the Constitution.  Felt more strongly in "States Rights" over Federal powers.

Jan Alexander

Speaking of 

2 senators per state..
California's population is 39,3...million     
Texas          population is 29.5 million
S. Dakota    pop                  895 thousand    , 2021
N. Dakota   pop                  775 thousand        

Biden is off of New Hamshire's primary ballot... you can google reason , to much to bore people here. 
Christie is off of Maine's  primary ballot..  interestingly ..........

Who are you all going to vote for in your Republican primary, if you aren't voting for Trump? 
Who has the most chance of a surprise win over Trump? curious......

Bob Davidson

No one mentioned the tariffs the North imposed on the country as a major cause of the War Between the States. Obviously, slavery was a huge issue for many Southerners (the planter class had almost all of their capital tied up in slaves and couldn't lose their human assets without losing most of their money) but the division between the industrial North and the agricultural South was probably irreconcilable.  Most smart Southerners (including Jefferson Davis) realized that the slave system was unsustainable but just erasing all of the money invested in slaves would destroy their economy.

When mechanical agriculture became possible, slavery went away everywhere agriculture became mechanical because it no longer made economic sense.  The places in the world where slavery is still practiced, particularly Africa and the Arab countries, are either places that practice medieval agriculture or places with massive unearned wealth that can afford unproductive servants.  I recently read that there are more slaves in the world now than in 1860.

Right now is a lot like the Antebellum Era -- Americans are so divided in the way we see the word that there is not a common viewpoint in the country or a place where people can reconcile their differences. Things always get ugly when that happens.

Sandra Spieker (Ringo)

Jan,

Interesting factoids on states and their populations versus Senators.  Here are a few more (got the data from the Census).

Kansas Population 2,940,000 2023 estimate

Delaware Population 1,031,000 2023 estimate

Oklahoma Population 4,053,000 2023 estimate

Montana Population 1,032,000 2023 estimate

Connecticut Population 3,617,000 2023 estimate

As for the Civil war or any war for that matter it boils down to two things, greed and power.  Every war.  Period.  Religion is part of the power thing.  Slavery is both power and greed.  Money for nothing.....etc.  We have laws to keep us from being inhuman and controlling our desire for unlimited power and greed.   Checks and balance.  Too bad so many have to suffer and die as a result.

Janalu Jeanes (Parchman)

Bob D.,

I agree with your conclusion that Americans are so divided in the way we see the world, that there is not a common viewpoint in our country or a place where people can reconcile their differences.  The Supreme Court is our 'go to' place currently, but, of course, the Supreme Court is not supposed to be referred to, as the 'be-all-end-all.'  Our Congress is supposed to resolve most conflicts, if I understand our system correctly. 

What do you suggest we do to better ourselves and our system?

Seems to me we should all study and reread all of our Founders' words, with their emphasis on The Creator's profound presence in our founding, and His teachings to us all.  THAT is the big problem, wouldn't you agree?

I think we need to get down on our knees and pray with sincerity, asking for forgiveness and guidance with urgency.  Too many of us have fallen away from what used to unite us with love, kindness and respect for each other.

Political power has become the number one driving factor in too many American minds.

Maybe I'm thinking too simplistically.

I just heard on the radio that Ms. Gay, Harvard president, has decided to resign.  In her resignation letter, she stated that she was resigning mainly because of racial animosity directed toward her, causing her fear.  There were no words that I heard, of apology for numerous instances of plagiarism.

There you can see an example of one of the failings in our society.  Truth takes a backseat, and politics have become the leading driver of success for many of our citizens.

Jim Bedwell

Here's an odd albino/white crow/raven in Anchorage on New Year's Day!!! Makes me want to change my name to Jim Crow and move back to Alaska!!!

Russ Stovall

Davd:

Your are corredt on the Civil War was started over economics.  The South was very upset with the tariffs the North was charging them to process their cotton.  Abolishing slavery was a by-product to the war, not the cause ot the war.

David Cordell

I just watched a 20-minute piece on Fox Nation about the Christmas Truce of 1914. Well done. Narrated by Benjamin Hall, the Fox Reporter who was seriously injured in Ukraine. Toward the end, it showed this sculpture in Liverpool. 

The sculptor was interviewed and' explained that he was inspired to create the sculpture by a video by Paul McCartney called Pipes of Peace that recreated the Christmas Truce and that Liverpool seemed an appropriate location because it was  McCartney's birthplace. Cleverly, the sculpture is entitled All Together Now.

Here is the 4-minute video. Note that Paul plays both a British and German soldier.

Lowell Tuttle

Reading a few articles on the antebellum America I noted a few poignant thoughts.  

The South set itself back 100 years by being agrarian, relying on slavery, and failing to evolve industrially as had the North...a lack of foresight by leaders...even holding onto that process beyond the years of reconstruction...

Sort of a self inflicted curse.

David Cordell

Lowell,

I agree that slavery held back the South.

Here is an irony. Slavery was terrible for the Black slaves and for many generations after slavery was outlawed, but it was beneficial for current Black people in the U.S.. (Yes, I know that that comment will raise eyebrows.)

The average Black peson in the U.S. is better off in terms of freedom and financial well-being than in any of the West African countries that exported slaves. I would guess that the differential in terms of freedom and financial well-being between country of origin and the U.S. is larger for Black people than for White people from all the "traditional" sources of free immigration. For example, I am better off than my Sicilian cousins, but the average Black person inthe U.S is far better off than the average citizen of the Ivory Coast. My guess is that the typical citizen of the Ivory Coast would be happy to change places with the typical Black person in the U.S. I don't think it goes the other way. Note especially Liberia, to which many American former slaves immigrated. 

[An aside -- a few years ago I had a teaching assistant from Gabon. He was very bright, well read, and well educated -- went to boarding school in France. His family apparently was in the 1% class. (He drove a Lexus.) He didn't have much respect for American Black people as a group.]

Had it not been for slavery, the Black population in the U.S. would be much smaller as would be problems within the Black community in this country.

So, paradoxically, Black Americans are better off than Black Africans because of slavery, but Black Americans would be better off still if there had been no slavery, although there would be fewer of them.

Janalu Jeanes (Parchman)

David, 

I've thought similar thoughts over the years, concerning the Black Americans.

I've often wondered, if we offered one way plane tickets to Black Americans who are always angry about their plight here, how many of them would actually like to go back to Africa to live permanently.

I imagine that if they really thought about life in Africa rather than life here, I'm betting they would rather be here.  The conditions in Africa in most areas are just not up to par with the US by far, and what they have here is better, even in our poorer neighborhoods.

it's evident they like our cars, paved roads, indoor plumbing, clean water, food choices, gold chain jewelry, pit bull dogs, movie theaters, malls, decent WI-FI, decent TV selections, etc., so leaving this country for African life, is probably not in the cards of options for them.

David Cordell

Janalu,

I suppose most of us look at what we don't have, but wish we did, rather than what we do have, but are insufficiently thankful for.

Janalu Jeanes (Parchman)

Si Senor!

Jan Alexander

Sounds like Pollyanna's "Glad game", the end justifying the means , I mean. Kinda sorta.

Janalu Jeanes (Parchman)

I don't think anyone with a conscience will justify that slavery was correct in the US or anywhere in the world.

We know that all of us are equal and are brothers and sisters with one Father.  HE tells us to treat each other with love, just as we, ourselves, want to be treated.  We were taught this lesson when we were small kids, and have never forgotten the lesson.

Lowell Tuttle

We have been watching season 5 of Shetland.   It's a detective series on Britbox, but I think it's o Amazon too.

These resent episodes are about the human trafficiing trade, slavery.   It delves into an organized structure of mahem surroundng the actions to keep immigrants so entangled....even ransoming and murdering the victims

The Shetland Islands are part of a drop off or connection point because of it's proximity to the North Sea off shore workers, and it's remote existence.

Victims from all parts of the third world.  

Of course it is fiction, but, fiction that is reality based.   

I can't wrap my head around how culture allowed slavery anywhere in the first place.  It makes sense that humanity "invented" religion, though I suppose many religious folks explain it all as Satan at work.

David Cordell

Just about everyone agrees that slavery is bad!! Exceptions: slave traders and slave purchasers, and there are too many of both.

I'm no anthropologist, but it seems to me (and everyone else) clear that civilization has evolved in a good way with regard to slavery. Slavery pre-dated this country by thousands of years.(Charlton Heston showed us that in The Ten Commandments!!) Back then, there were winners and losers, and the losers were subjugated. It was accepted as normal. 

It isn't normal It is evil. Sex slavery is even worse. I don't understand how this is allowed to exist in a so-called civilized country.

(All together now: "Thank you, Captain Obvious.")

Jan Alexander

I am going to tell Captain Marvel to tell Captain Obvious , that if he starts a statement out with , "Yes, I know that that comment will raise eyebrows.)" , to probably expect some flack,  

Then I am going to shoot off an email to Oprah and ask her where she keeps her pitbulls and gold chains..