The Message Forum is an ongoing dialogue among classmates. The goal is to encourage friendly interaction, including interaction among classmates who really didn't know each other. Experience on the site has revealed that certain topics tend to cause friction and hard feelings, especially politics and religion. 

Although politics and religion are not completely off-limits, classmates are asked to be positive in their posts and not to be too repetitive or allow a dialog to degenerate into an argument. 

Forums work when people participate - so don't be bashful! Click the "Post Response" button to add your entry to the forum.

David Wier

Janalu:

"...when he said he would be uniting all of our country's citizens"

The problem is that, (in my opinion) as split as our country is, the beliefs that divide us form the core that keeps the individuals from even wanting to be united. In other words, I'm right - you're wrong - forget anything else.

David Cordell

David W. --

Agreed, but with a spin.. 

• I'm right; you're wrong.
• I'm left; you're evil.

I put a lot of blame on Pelosi and Schumer. There are many issues that both parties can agree on, and that can result in popular legislation. Instead of isolating and addressing those issues, they package them with other issues that are poisonous to the other side. Further, they seem to want to hide what's in these bills untill they are passed (by slim majorities). Witness statements by Pelosi and Jen Psaki. 

What do you think about the policies of the new DA in Manhattan?

Lowell Tuttle

Wayne, actually, Richardson is ranked #2 in the country and Duncanville ranked #3, but Richadson beat Duncanville on a neutral courst recently.   And, the #1 ranked team has only played 4 games. Camden nj is #1 by Max preps.

Sandra Spieker (Ringo)

When I got up this morning, Danny was already up (early as usual) and watching a program on PBS, entitled, Us Versus Them.    That is a great video, if you have time I would strongly suggest you view it. 

We are divided by our bias, and social media is making the divide worse.  I would like to believe that most people are not cruel or unjust.  They give to the poor, remain steadfast to their faith, believe that GOD is love, or find strength through mindfulness and empathy. Truth is we are not far apart, but we are being systematically divided by a select few ambitious politicians and groups seeking power or profit to benefit only themselves.  It is recognizing this and doing the hard work of seeking the real truth that will end this cycle.  Otherwise it will escalate and we could very well have another civil war.

Which brings me to another point of history.  When Republicans were liberal and Democrats were conservative.  I did some research and that last link is the best description of why the Party of Lincoln, so proudly proclaimed today's Republicans were liberal thinkers and very progressive.  The Southern Democrats on the other hand were for slavery, Jim Crow and segregation.  Read the article.  It tracks the change over from the 1840's to the near present (2016 when the article was published). 

It is also interesting to read this article concerning the Caning of Charles Sumner.  There has been violence on the floor of Congress before, quite violent.  Sumner was caned at his desk on the Senate floor by a congressman from the South named Preston Brooks.  Sumner lived, but it took three years for him to recover and return to the Senate.  Brooks was hailed as hero.  You might say, this action further fueled the Civil war.  Preston was regarded as a hero in the South.  History is prehaps repeating itself.   Do you regard they mob as heros?  Or feel they are being unfairly judged and punished for storming and ransacking the Capitol?

Which brings me to the Mob that attacked our Capitol last year.  If we don't investigate the root cause and take steps to stop another similar attack things could escalate to the point where we divide ourselves to the brink of another civil war.  Ignoring this incident or comparing it to any other protest that sparked violence will further imperil our democracy.

Those who seek power to gain an authoritarian control over our country, will further divide us, and only for their own profit or gain of power. 

We need compromise.  We need civil debate.  We need to stop calling each other names or labels that simply do not define us or apply.

Jan Alexander

 WOW ! what timing ... SANDRA ..like minds ..

Here is the rest of the story:

In other words...which started my previous post of thoughts.. was :

The very first time I posted on the is forum during the 2016 Republican primaries , it was a facetious comment  about my fear of civil war as I was witnessing the escalating division in the U.S.  Little did I know. 

I believe the majority of  Americans do NOT want a civil war. But I do imagine it and fear that even some could try to at the cost of alot of horror , death and chaos. 

Just as the forums are a mini - sample of the broad scale of opinions and beliefs.. all I hope is that , as a nation and as individuals  , we abate radical , dissident behavior that is seemily increasing and becoming more public which does excite us into more division.  We need to denounce and squelch it in it's tracts. This isn't who we are.

 We need to practice what we have learned in church, family and other spaces to maintain a level of  civility and respect  , so all on other sides can even look at the view without wanting to run away . 
I think when we get to local politics and communities , that is where we are usually thrown into common needs and issues that we both share.

In my experience , we have worked as one, as neighbors and friends. AND we have gotten things done for the common good , even when there were 2 sides both comprised of both parties, within each. If that makes sense.

If we can stop the screaming and stop poking the bear and put it into something we can actually hear or want to hear ... maybe we as a nation stand a chance. So , I hope like hell ,as the majority Americans, we  can control our emotions and talk and act with respect to each other, then  maybe we can somehow get through all , that lies before us and slam down those radical groups. I don't want the United States to become extinct.

( I am reminded that most of us on these forums are  ones that like to pontificate ; we too, aren't the majority )  
The end... now to extinct myself. ..

Steve Keene

Jan,

I liked your animal story.  I hope your bronchitis is better.  Bronchitis used to be a regular annual condition in the Panhandle where I grew up, caused by a combination of cold dry air, cedar pollen and wind which brought it along as a symptom of a cold.  I remember my grandmother Nonnie using vaporrub on our chests at night and the smell of menthol permeating tthe house.  The mentholatum broke up the congestion and eventually drained our sinuses.  Once the drainage stopped, our coughing cleared up pretty soon.

ISn't it interesting that through all of the climate change, earthquakes and faulting and upheaval due to volcanic activity, species like the black footed ferret and spotted owls did not become extinct over 300 million years.  I guess their survival implies the survival of prairie dogs, as well.  One of my oil business partners and I found a boneyard in a wash beneath steep cliffs on the north side of the Canadian river near Masterson.  We excavated and dug out bones that were later identified as miniature horse, paleo bison that were larger than the current bison and rhinoceros.  If you ever make it to the Panhandle, I can show you a trophy room in my buddies office.  I was particularly interested in your tale of North American cheetahs.  I bet watching cheetahs chase pronghorn antelope would be a magnificent sight.

I am really not a bad guy, you and I just differ politically.  I speak out on religion because I vowed to God that I would if he would allow me to see my kids grow up.  He promised me that he would show me the truth of the Bible if I diligently searched.  So far as I can see, we have both kept our side of the agreement.  He always honors His Word.  I am not always that dependable.

P.S.:  If you need someone to rub some Vaporub on your chest, I might be available.  Now you've got to laugh at that one!

Jan Alexander

AND !

When there differences between groups in this here land of the United States, since we no longer live in barbaric times , we have created a system of laws, rules , regulations , guidelines and procedures to iron out our specific concerns at the time , at every  level.

  At the local level there are HOA bylaws, at the city and county  zoning regulations, Master plans ( not yet an instrument of control but a philosophical backdrop) love that phrase.. will never forget that, road classifications, rezoning and development procedures , public hearings etc.. state and national constitutions  - all that give us an orderly way to work out our damn differences.. not to go mod rule , take over the government with arms...

Steve Keene

Jan,

At least I was not stupid enough to make a March or illegal entry like that, and my Buffalo head costume was at the cleaners anyway.

Jan Alexander

Steveo...It is all OK and always has been with you and I . I have to tell you have to read this book by Craig Childs .. and I see he has more books which I am going to read... You and everyone else would love them. I picked it up outside Grand Junction at the Monument National Park tourist store, it was sitting next to Edward Abbey's , Desert Solitaire. 

By the way , I found my soon to be home between the whale's eye and the Bookcliff wild horses. :-) Just have to get over this and getting my the back of my neck cut open for the 4th time.,as well , too,  at some point. 

Can't wait to go explore all the places this guy writes about.. He still lives near Paonia.. I guess. 

I am sure in the near future , I won't be able to turn a blind eye to the wild horse and wolf plight . 

( Can't remember the date but the first yellowstone female wolf in 50 years ( ? not going to look up)... was found dead a few exits up from me on I -70 by Dumont.  That alerted all ranchers that they would soon be streaming into Colorado . The Division of WIldlife speerheaded a committee to create a Wolf Management plan and I turned in my own little paper to them as they rquested public responses... :-) (all a long story) .SOOOOO.... 

Janalu, they used to run the wild horses off the Royal Gorge,   in Wyoming. 

Now to binge on some more NEW BLOOD.  

Jan Alexander

Steve, oops , too many zero's

They found a one humped camel from a million years ago , a black footed ferret from 35,000 years ago and another from 15,000 years ago

Sandra Spieker (Ringo)

Jan,

Ezra Klein's latest opinion piece in The NYT stated that there is no "National Election".  All elections are controlled on the local level.  Once you elect the local elections administrator or clerk, that person can control how many ballot boxes and voting locations etc.  Thus controlling the turnout in battleground locations.  Steve Bannon is on a mission (as the entire Republican Party) to seed the primaries with only radical candidates hell bent to do just that. The Republicans are all action now.  They are executing their stategy NOW.

The Democrats are still trying to plan.  Oye vey.  If we don't get with the program NOW,  WE WILL LOSE OUR DEMOCRACY.  We will have a Trumpian, Bannon Monarchy.

Jan Alexander

Sandra, yes .

and the John Lewis right to vote and the Freedom to vote acts are being blocked by Senate Republicans preventng them to go to a floor vote . A majority of Americans believe there needs to be changes.  So it is obstruction of the right to vote , here. 

ok.... now to get extinct... 

Bob Fleming

Janalu & David -

Janalu, I meant to use the term "militia" as you first understood it.  When Trump relentlessly attacks the Governor of Michigan for mask mandates and partial lockdowns and later a militia plots to kidnap her & when Trump tells the Proud Boys at a national debate to "stand down and stand by" and they serve as shock troops on January 6th, is not far-fetched to imagine an American political party developing its own militia to enhance its legitimate politicl efforts with street or mob action.  See Iran. Fortunately, our current would-be militias aren't yet led by men of sufficient military experience to be effective.  But watch out.  As I say, mobs can be used to intimidate opponents AND intimidate supporters.

David, I consider the Richardson 7 to be a closed-feedback loop within the Forum.  Closed feed-back loops have several features in common.

First, they can simply do not recognize or respond to information or events they prefer to ignore.  Thus my question about January 6.  Second, they can minimize or deflect  questions that are uncomfortable.  Trump led a five week plot to subvert the Constitution by overturning the results of a legitimate democratic election.  Discussions about Black Lives Matter, who died and who didn't, how to parse Trump's phrases, Biden's competencies, etc. just don't rise to The Question.  Third, closed feedback loops always devolve down to the most rstrident members' viewpoints and priorities.  Always.

That's how the Forum often appears to me.

Kurt Fischer

Bob:

As usual, you have done a good job of casting the discussion into something other than the original black/white.  The use of the term Mob is very interesting.  I believe it is wrong to ascribe all of the actions of the rioters to Trump, but he certainly played a role in instigating them.  I continue to have a difficult time attributing the actions of that day to a single trigger.  On the one hand, Trump provided plenty of encouragement to his followers to protest, but on the other hand, he never encouraged them to storm the building and wreck havoc.  There were others within the crowd with their own agendas who successfully converted a relatively small number of protesters to take the action to storm the Capitol Building.  But I guess this is similar in nature to the behavior of mobs in general.  They get started in one direction and then are easier to turn and direct to other goals.  Somewhere on January 6, the protests of the many turned into a mob of a subset of people.  It would indeed be interesting to understand how this occurred.

To this day I don't believe the "mass media" has given appropriate thought to why the Republicans did not trust the election results..The sense that I have is that it always turns into a finger pointing exercise to say "See, your concerns are invalid and nothing wrong happened.  These are not the droids you are looking for". The bigger picture says that various agencies within our country significantly changed how votes were cast and this raised suspicions within the Republican body regarding whether any improprieties had occurred.  I know there have been plenty of studies since the election and each one seems to have shown very few issues.  But by now that only confirms the incredulity of the doubters.  Once a legend has been born, it's pretty hard to disprove it.  Frankly, I believe the Republicans need to move past that issue since they can't be convinced otherwise.

If the January 6 committee were indeed looking for all the root causes of the mob invasion of the Capitol Building, I would be very interested in the results.  Instead, it appears the same individuals are involved who were involved in prior attempts to impeach President Trump and who seem to suffer from the syndrome of wanting to convict him of something/anything.  I have substantial doubt that the results of their inquiry will be viewed by Republicans as anything other than another witch hunt.

David Cordell

Bobby,

Read this as if we were having a pleasant, calm conversation.

Regarding your concept of the closed loop, everything you mentioned is typical in any political debate. Just watch a press briefing by Jen Psaki if you want to see a real pro. Further, the concept implies that you get to be on offense all the time. You want to attack but you object to a counterattack 

What exactly is it that you want from me/us?

Do you want me to acknowledge that Trump is a jerk? I've done that many times.

Do you want me to say that he was ill-advised to lead a pep rally that ended up in a riot? OK. He was ill-advised to lead a pep rally that ended up in a riot.

Do you want me to say that his actions had the effect, unintentionally or intentionally, to give encouragement for rioting? I will agree to unintentionally only. In fact, I consider it ludicous to think that Trump wanted a riot..

Do you want me to say that it was terribly wrong for rioters to enter the Capitol illegally. I've said that before.

Do you want me to say that Trump was wrong to push his belief that the election was stolen at the ballot box? OK. Trump was wrong to push his belief that the election was stolen at the ballot box. Further, he is politically stupid to continue that discussion, whether he believes it or not. 

Do you want me to say that the country is better off with Biden as President than Trump? Ain't gonna happen. You might be better off because your team is in power, which makes you happy, but I would argue that the country is worse off.

Your team spent four years undermining Trump. Your team said he was an illegitimate President. An overwhelmingly Democrat press hammered him daily Supposedly responsible journalists said he was a traitor, Putin's puppet, a Russian collaborator. Your team poisoned the atmosphere. Your team trolled and taunted him. Your team brought out his worst instincts, no differently than if you had been teasing a pitbull. Ultimately, the pitbull bites and must be put down, just as Trump was politically put down, although perhaps not permanently. Unlike George W. Bush, who was willing to endure the endure the slings and arrows of outrageous press coverage with few complaints, Trump was drawn in to the fray, to his great disadvantage.

Your team was on the offense for four years, and January 6 gave you some more opportunity, which you are exploiting marvelously. But it doesn't change the fact that your man Biden is a terrible President. Is that an example of deflection? So be it.

Janalu Jeanes (Parchman)

Great posts from Kurt and David.  You two are excellent at organizing your thoughts and putting them into concise language.

Three points for which I've heard little explanation:

Zuckerburg threw a huge amount of money into a few chosen Dem. coffers, to do what?  To skew election votes in several devious ways.  Why is he not being investigated?

The Pennsylvania state voting rules were evidently REWRITTEN by UNELECTED people who wanted to skew voting tallies in that state, just a few months before the election date.  (Very bad idea, not to mention totally unfair, and against the state's Constitution.)

There was widespread harvesting noted in several states, even mentioned in the press as having been done by Ms. Omar's personal workers, as well as by workers of Stacey Abrams, in Georgia.

Why do we hear no mention of these OBVIOUS methods of fouling the past election being investigated and corrected?

These types of questions remain in the minds of Republicans, and it is for those UNANSWERED questions that many Republicans went to the January 6th speech given by Trump.  They wanted to voice their anger and frustration, which was exacerbated by most of the media telling us, basically, "Shut-up!  You have no legal standing!"   And since that original time, the press in STILL saying the same thing, over and over!   Well tell us please why we get no legal redress(?)....to find out just exactly what DID happen, since we KNOW that there were many deceptions that did occur!

If the Democrats are so sure that the election was not rigged in any way, then why can't they allow Republicans to review the tallies they are requesting?  And the tallying machines too?  In almost all of their attempts, they are being denied!  (If everything was on "the up and up," then Dems should be happy and willing to open all of their books and methods to inspection.....since they say they have nothing to hide!

Republicans are told to "Back off, and accept what we tell you!"   But of course, we are well aware of the Democrats LYING to us time and time again, which is not to say that Republicans never tell lies, because they have been caught doing the same thing, but not with elections, to my knowledge.  This election problem is a BIG ENORMOUS one, and Republicans want some redress and explanation---done out in the open for all to see!

David Cordell

This is a unique math teaser that will capture your imagination. It can be done in your head without pencil and paper.

This really works! 

For as long as I can remember, I have loved math tricks. This one really works! It will take you only about ten seconds and, amazingly, it will reveal your all-time favorite movie.

I'm pretty good at math, so I did it in my head, then on paper, and finally   on a calculator just to confirm my mathematical calculations. Each time I got the same answer, and sure enough, it IS my very favorite movie…EVER! DO NOT cheat. DO YOUR math, THEN compare the results on the list of movies at the bottom. You will be AMAZED at how scary true and accurate this test is: Don't cheat by looking at the list first.

1. Pick a number from 1-9. 

2. Multiply that number by 3. 

3. Add 3. 

4. Multiply by 3 again. 

5. Your total will be a two-digit number. Add the first and second digits together to find your favorite movie (of all time) in the list of 17 movies below:

Movie List: 

1. Gone With the Wind 

2. E.T. 

3. Blazing Saddles 

4. Star Wars 

5. Forrest Gump 

6. The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly 

7. Jaws 

8. Grease 

9. Nancy Pelosi's Resignation Speech 

10. Casablanca 

11. Jurassic Park 

12. Shrek 

13. Pirates of the Caribbean 

14. Titanic 

15. Raiders of the Lost Ark 

Wayne Gary

David, Jim

We keep hearing in the news how many arrests from Jan 6 riot.  I never hear about arrests of the rioters or looters in Dallas after the BLM marches. I also wonder how many arrests were in Portland after police stations and courthouse were seized by the BLM mob.  The news ignore the riots.

David Cordell

Wayne, how are you feeling? I assume that you hav a mild case of COVID-19, but it's a case nonetheless.

David Wier

David C.

They've all done that since I can remember. They want something, so the put it in a bill the others want. Remember the Original Bush's campaign statement that he would not raise any taxes? But then, he really wanted something and agreed to a DEM bill that gave it to him. Then, he didn't get re-elected. 

I'm talking about things like: "All Republicans are racist" and "All Democrats are socialists". Therefore, anything they want in any bill is rejected by the other party. That's where we are today. 

Wayne Gary

David,

.thanks for asking.

I have not had symptona except a littlr congestion.  I tested positive again on Thursday and Sat. I will test today andhope to be negative.  Jo Ann has hadme in solitary confinement in the bedroom.  At times the door will open and food is slid into the door. I am glad I got a laptop at thankdgiving so I can use it in the bed.

Steve Keene

Wayne,

You sure are a nice guy.  You could have isolated your wife in the bedroom to keep her safe and had the run of the place yourself.  Something tells me that your comfort in the house is second to the kids and dog.

Jan,

As old as we are, what's a few extra zeroes among friends?

David Cordell

David W.,

As much as I am annoyed at the "all Repubilcans and Trump voters are racist" canard, I hope that Democrat operatives continue to push that message. I think it is a total loser. Also, the "adults" in the Democrat party should wake up and realize that the large majority of Americans oppose socialism, and they should force the party back toward the center. Of course, I hope they don't do that.

David Cordell

I thought this was interesting.

Steve Keene

David,

I worry that if enough of the Democrats keep getting sick with Covid that they may change their border policy that was the superspreader event of the last year.  If they quit acting like we are too stupid to connect the two issues, they could actually win.