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02/13/20 12:21 PM #17528    

 

Jean Renard Ward

David:

 

Jean, I have Quakers in my background, and my father was a pacifist, spending four years in work camps during WWII as a conscientious objector. One of our ancestors, John Vail (b 1685 in Westchester Co, NY, d 1774 in MIddlesex, Co, NJ) is listed in genealogical records as John Vail Quaker Preacher. His grandfather Thomas Vail was a Puritan who lived in your territory -- Boston, Salem, and possibly Scituate -- having reached America in 1640.

 

I really don't our family's geneology or history much beyond my grandparents.  

I would like you hear more about your father -- I suspect being  a C.O. was not an easy thing back then, with the war being seen as an existiential conflict.   "Work camp" -- was this alternative service, or some kind of punitive measure?   (I suppose the line between the two could be pretty blurred.)  Did he talk about it much?  Did it carry over into later life, like during the 1960's?

My own father didn't talk much about his experiences -- he was stateside most of the war, after a service-related injury in an accident while on patrol with the Coast Guard.

My spouse's father didn't talk much about his wartime experience, either.  He was  POW in Siberia until 1948.   We do have all the letters he wrote to my spouse's mother, but they all had to pass through the censors. 

You mentioned the movie "1917" a while back.  We still want to see it.


02/13/20 03:38 PM #17529    

 

Wayne Gary

David,

I did see your  post.  I hope to go to Philmont next year for a Methodist church training.

Jean,

If you father is alive make sure he has his POW medal and ribbon.  If he does not you can buy replacements on the web.

I have friend that was taken POW on the first day of the Battle of the Bulge.  He would not talk much about the time in the POW camp. When I asked him about a POW medal, he replied "they do not give medals to cowards".  I ordered in a replacement medal and ribbons and gave it to him in front of his Sunday School Class. He has been able to talk a little about it.  He said it was 25 years before he could tell his son he was a POW.


02/13/20 08:04 PM #17530    

 

Steve Keene

David,

My neighbor called and invited me to share at a grand opening today:


02/13/20 08:58 PM #17531    

 

Jean Renard Ward

Wayne: 

 

If you father is alive make sure he has his POW medal and ribbon.  If he does not you can buy replacements on the web.

I have friend that was taken POW on the first day of the Battle of the Bulge.  He would not talk much about the time in the POW camp. When I asked him about a POW medal, he replied "they do not give medals to cowards".  I ordered in a replacement medal and ribbons and gave it to him in front of his Sunday School Class. He has been able to talk a little about it.  He said it was 25 years before he could tell his son he was a POW.

 

It sounds like your friend had a rough time that I cannot imagine.

Sorry for any confusion -- It was my spouse's father, not mine.  Her father was a calvalry soldier (with an actual horse!) in the German army in WW II, which is how he ended up as a POW in Siberia, held by the Soviets in a work camp.  He was released in 1948, three years after the war ended.  He never said much about his war experiences, just a few little stories about when they were on leave or off-duty, and not even that about his time as a POW. 

He didn't seem angry or bitter about anything.  He just didn't talk about it. 

 

 


02/14/20 01:50 PM #17532    

 

David Cordell

Jean,

Thanks for your interest. My father wrote an autobiography, and it includes about 25 typewritten pages that relate to his time in three conscientious objector work camps. I will email a scan of those pages to you. They include a lot of descriptions of other camp denizens and some information about camp life. A couple of the stories are pretty interesting. Of course, please don't feel compelled to read any of it.

I never talked with my father about his experience. My mistake. My loss.


02/14/20 04:17 PM #17533    

 

Wayne Gary

David,

I would like to read your fathers memories.

Jean, Lance,

The US army used pack mules in Italy and Burma. In Italy they were used in the mountains where vehicles could not go.  They were used in the Jungles of Burma where there were no roads.  The use of them prompted a series of comedy movies "Francis the Talking Mule".

Jean, Your Father-in-Law must have really had it rough.  My friend was in a German town on a work detail with 39 other POWs digging bomb shelters when one morning the Sergeant guarding them said the Russians are getting near and he did not want to be taken prisoner by them so they started walking West for 4 days without food until they found a US tank column.


02/15/20 05:22 PM #17534    

 

Steve Keene

Wayne,

I know you know I believe in the second amendment.  For Valentines I finally found a gun safe that would hold my guns.


02/17/20 09:14 AM #17535    

 

Steve Keene

Lowell,

Clayton Williams, the Aggie oil man died today.  I thought you would enjoy one of his quotes he made when he was running against Ann Richards for Governor.  He was comparing being Governor to one of his early jobs being a life insurance salesman.  He said, "When you can talk some fella into taking his beer money and putting it aside so that his wife can live happily ever after with another man, you're a salesman."


02/17/20 03:15 PM #17536    

 

David Cordell

Wayne,

As per your request ......

See the link below for 27 pages from my father's autobiography, but don't expect anything exciting! They address conscientious objector camp life, which was more constraining than normal civilian life, but nowhere near the hardship (not to mention risk) of military life during the war. Note that the camps existed as a partnership between the government and pacifist religious organizations.  A couple of interesting stories are included. Ignore the typos. He typed it himself on an Underwood manual typewriter.

https://utdallas.box.com/s/2br6ju9h76ihtlg9p4ngly82w14betuf

This link goes to a transcript of an NPR story on the Germfask camp. Includes a short quotation from my father.

https://utdallas.box.com/s/3n2p3tp9tqxr1fyflaln2skw9tjfj308

The Mennonites maintain a website with some information about the camps. Here is the link for page for my father. On that page are three links for the three different camps where my father was interned.

http://civilianpublicservice.org/workers/1834

You may have heard of Swarthmore College that is near Philadelphia. ("When Cass was a sophomore, planned to go to Swarthmore, but she changed her mind one day.") It was founded by the Quakers (Friends), and is the repository for most of the records from the camps, including requests from the internees.


02/17/20 06:58 PM #17537    

 

Steve Keene

Wayne

Pretty sure Royce and Tommy went to mein kampf.


02/17/20 08:14 PM #17538    

 

Wayne Gary

I tried to read the UT site and they require a subscription.  The third link is very good.  I was not familiar with the CO work camps. I am sure it took a lot of courage to be a CO.


02/17/20 10:27 PM #17539    

 

David Cordell

My fault, Wayne. It was set to allow only UT Dallas employees.  It should work now. 

Copy of part of post:

See the link below for 27 pages from my father's autobiography, but don't expect anything exciting! They address conscientious objector camp life, which was more constraining than normal civilian life, but nowhere near the hardship (not to mention risk) of military life during the war. Note that the camps existed as a partnership between the government and pacifist religious organizations.  A couple of interesting stories are included. Ignore the typos. He typed it himself on an Underwood manual typewriter.

https://utdallas.box.com/s/2br6ju9h76ihtlg9p4ngly82w14betuf

This link goes to a transcript of an NPR story on the Germfask camp. Includes a short quotation from my father.

https://utdallas.box.com/s/3n2p3tp9tqxr1fyflaln2skw9tjfj308


02/19/20 01:02 PM #17540    

Kurt Fischer

David:

What a wonderful biographical sketch that your father wrote.  I'm sure all of us wish that our parents took the time to put pen to paper and document parts of their lives.  This was a great read.


02/19/20 08:25 PM #17541    

 

Wayne Gary

David,

I enjoyed reading your father's work.  While it is not earth shattering it is a good personal note. This  is something that needs to be remembered.  Most things that need to be passed on seem to be mundane but that is what life is all about.  A life of everyday events tied together that form a great legacy.  I am not a philosopher just an engineer and salesman that has learned to appreciate the mundane.


02/19/20 09:50 PM #17542    

 

David Cordell

Thanks, Kurt and Wayne. I met one of the internees (Wally) in the story when he and his wife visited my family in about 1960 or 61. I asked if they "got" the Flintstones where they lived, which I think was Wisconsin. They didn't know what I was talking about. Turned out that they didn't own a television.

The two stories I enjoyed were of the lady pointing the gun at my father, and of Jonas Salk.

I didn't know that my father had been a conscientious objector until I was in my late teens, I think, and I was uncomfortable about it. Other dads were in in Germany, Italy, or the Pacific, many demonstrating real physical courage, which is universally admired.  My father showed a different type of courage, one that is not admired by everyone. On the other hand, I never felt bad about drawing draft lottery number 360 back when I looked like the guy in the photo above.


02/20/20 12:19 PM #17543    

Kurt Fischer

Although I don't have a lot of back story on it, my father-in-law served in the Army as a conscientious objector during World War II.  I know he went through boot camp and eventually served in North Africa and Italy.  He did not engage in fighting, but acted in a support role, often supporting forward positioned units.  He suffered from hearing loss by being too close to artillery units, so this was evidence of being relatively close to the fighting.

He later went to seminary and served as a Methodist minister for the rest of his life.  


02/20/20 03:46 PM #17544    

 

Wayne Gary

I have 2 stories.

The first was a retired Navy chaplain in WW2. He was a Methodist minister. When asked "how can you serve when you are against killing". His response was I cannot kill but the men who are doing the fighing need to know that God cares.

One of his stories was he was on board a ship during and island campaign when a call came from a marine Col wanting a chaplin to come ashore and serve communion.  The ships captain did not want to let him go ashore and risk loosing him. His reply was some of the men will die tomorrow and he has a duty to God to minister to them and furthermore he did not report the ship's captian but to the Chief of Chaplins and he was going ashore.  He went into the jungle and served communion then the next day was infromed the Col had been killed later that day.

When I was at A&M a friend had come back after serving 2 yrs in the Army.  He was a C O and served as a radio specialist reparing radios and keeping the communications center operating for his entire service at Ft Sam Houston.


02/20/20 07:00 PM #17545    

Kurt Fischer

My wife reminded me of another story of her father during WWII.  He was in the back of a church in Italy when he spotted a familiar person seated and praying at tthe front of the church.  It was George Patton.  He always remembered that picture.


02/20/20 08:16 PM #17546    

 

Wayne Gary

Another story about Gen Patton.

My Uncle was in the Signal corps and made the Invasion of North Africa and all of the invasions into Italy and Southern France and spent a lot of time assigned to Gen Patton's units.  When the movie "Patton" came out he was very hesitant to see it because he felt it would "sugar coat Patton". After he saw the movie his comment was it was a good portrial of the general


02/21/20 01:11 PM #17547    

 

David Cordell

I think the recent movie that truly shows someone who was a conscientious objector but had enormous physical courage in war was Hacksaw Ridge, starring Andrew Garfield, which was based on a true story. You can't watch that movie without feeling somewhat inadequate.

A movie that portrays a pacifist Quaker family's struggles during the Civil War is Friendly Persuasion, staring Gary Cooper, Dorothy McGuire, and Anthony Perkins. (Note that "Friendly" is a play on words on Friends, which is another name for Quakers.)

One of my regrets is not taking my sons to listen to stories about WWII directly from participants. Hardee McCrary's father was at Guadalcanal or Okinawa, or someplace significant in the Pacific. I always intended to visit with him. Alas, some things simply shouldn't be postponed.

 


02/21/20 11:13 PM #17548    

 

David Cordell

Watched Ford versus Ferrari tonight. Good movie. Good story line and exciting racing sequences. During part of the movie there was music that sounded a lot like the instrumental part of Polk Salad Annie. Sho'nuff. It was.

Separately -- is anyone else getting tired of the word existential? Trump is an existential threat to the country?? Really? The country will stop existing? Until recently, I hadn't heard the word existential since a sophomore philosophy class. Now I hear it every day.

This reminds me of the word awesome. The Grand Canyon is awesome. When the waitress says, "Awesome," when I order iced tea, it is a bit of an overstatement.

Wait a minute while I yell at some kids who are on my lawn.


02/22/20 11:01 AM #17549    

 

Wayne Gary

David,

Lets add some more overused words:

Like;  I went like to the store like it was Wallmart .......

Basicaly; Basicaly I went to Walmart

Honestly: Honestly I will tell you the truth

An oldy but goody: You Know -  You know the sun came up you know this morning

 


02/22/20 03:14 PM #17550    

 

Lowell Tuttle

Susie and I have ctaught onto a phrase used in the new film, Troop Zero, which we loved.

Jim Gaffigan as a widower, and his daughter talk to each other and say, "What it is, boss" to each other all through the movie.

It's an old term, movie timed in the late 70's. 

So, "what it is, boss."


02/22/20 10:46 PM #17551    

 

David Cordell

OK. Here's another word that is misused: literally. "I was almost late for class and literally flew down the hallway to be on time." NO! If you literally flew, you actually flew! You know. Like, flew. With wings or rocket engines or something. It's not a metaphor. Not "sorta" flew. Not walked so fast that it seemed like you were flying. Flew! So cut it out!

Now, what can I say about sorta? I dunno. (He's on third base.)


02/23/20 07:22 AM #17552    

 

David Cordell

Pertinent to our earlier conversation -- there is a special tonight on Fox News at 9:00 CST called Unknown Valor that relates to Iwo Jima. This is the 75th anniversary. Hosted by Martha McCallum, who has written a book on the topic.

I'll be interested to see the specials this year relating to the 75th anniversary of V-E Day and VJ-Day.

The following is unrelated and came from a trivia site. I am reproducing it because the last item reminded me of my good friend Steve Keene.

5 Places Airplanes Can't Fly Over

On February 22, 1935, it became illegal for planes to fly over the White House. While the sight of an airplane flying overhead is normal for most people, there are areas in the United States where planes can't fly. These no-fly zones cover places that range from historical to top secret. Here are 5 places that airplanes can't fly over...

The White House

You might think the White House barred planes from flying overhead for security reasons. But in this case, the no-fly zone was created on this day in 1935 because President Franklin D. Roosevelt couldn't sleep with the drone of engines and propellers overhead. The ban is still in place, although it hasn't kept all aircraft out. There have been a few incidents in which an aircraft breached the no-fly zone, including one in which a small plane crashed two stories below President Clinton’s bedroom. In 1974, an Army private stole a helicopter from Fort Meade and hovered above the White House for six minutes and landed on the South Lawn. 

Area 51

If you were hoping to fly an aircraft over the infamous Area 51 to see what you could spot, you'd be in for a nasty surprise. The area around it is restricted to most, but not all, air travel. The only commuter flights allowed to fly to Area 51 must originate from a specific terminal at a specific airport (Las Vegas’s McCarran International Airport). The planes themselves must use the call sign “Janet” to get clearance to enter the airspace. While these restrictions may add to the forbidden appeal of sneaking around Area 51, it's a legitimate military zone that handles top-secret information. It's not an area you'd want to mess around in. 

Disneyland and Disney World

Both Disney properties in the United States have no-fly zones that extend in a three-mile radius around each, up to 3,000 feet above the park. They were included in a massive air-safety-focused act of Congress, Operation Liberty Shield, enacted in 2003. While the zones prevent plane noise from interrupting people's days at the park, critics say the zones do nothing to prevent terrorism and only prevent banner-towing planes from flying over the park. Some conservative groups have treated the zones as free-speech issues because they can't fly protest banners during some of the parks' events. 

A Number of Presidential Properties

What do Mount Vernon, Kennebunkport, and Camp David have in common? They're all presidential-related properties that have no-fly zones. Mount Vernon was George Washington's home, which has a no-fly zone up to 1,500 feet above mean sea level; Kennebunkport is home to the Bush family compound at Walker's Point, which has a no-fly zone up to 1,000 feet above mean sea level; and Camp David is the Maryland retreat where many presidents have gone to relax and to hold historical meetings and conferences. It has a no-fly zone of up to 5,000 feet above mean sea level.

Pantex Nuclear Assembly Plant

This spot is located about 17 miles northeast of Amarillo, Texas, and it is exactly what it sounds like—it’s a site for the production of nuclear weapons. Pantex also dismantles excess nukes and keeps tabs on existing ones. It’s one of several locations run by the National Nuclear Security Administration—but it’s actually the only one with a no-fly zone. As you might expect, the site is also closed to the public.


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